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Summary: This is an interview of Martha Sorensen (names changed at
the interviewer’s request). Martha Sorensen was born in 1927 to Harold
(Harry) and Dagmar. She was born in New York City, New York and lived there
until she married at age twenty. Her parents emigrated from Norway in
1915; this had a strong impact on Martha’s life through the cultural
differences between her family and the American culture that she grew up
in. Growing up during the Great Depression also had a significant
impact on her life. After finishing high school, Ms. Sorensen wanted to
go to college, but was not able to as her parents would not pay for her to go
(because she was a girl). She worked a little bit before she married,
and worked as a secretary after she married her husband Edgar to supplement
their income while Edgar finished college. Martha had four children,
and went back to school when her youngest was about sixteen. While she
was in graduate school, in 1983, her husband had a stroke that left him
permanently handicapped. She had to work harder, but she still finished
school and got her degree.
In this interview Martha Sorensen discusses immigration and the cultural
values attached to it. She talks about her mother's
experiences with motherhood as well as her motherhood
(1)
experiences. She also discusses her experiences during the Great Depression, her education
opportunities, gender discrimination, feminism(1), work(1),
gender relations(1) and World
War Two.
Transcript
of interview by Sofie Mitchell of Martha Sorensen
Session 1: February 2, 2004
SM: Even though you might be reluctant to tell me, tell me the year you were
born.
MS: I was born in 1927. I’m 76 years old.
SM: Where were you born?
MS: In New York City.
SM: And where did you grow up?
MS: I grew up in the city, until I was married at age twenty.
SM: What were your parent’s first names?
MS: My father’s name was Harold, known as Harry. And my mother’s name was
Dagmar.
SM: And where did they grow up?
MS: They were immigrants from Norway. They came late in 1915.
SM: As the daughter of Norwegian immigrants to the United States, how do you
think your childhood differed from children who’s
parents were “native born”?
MS: I think that, now that I can look at my life retrospectively, that there
was a big difference…between being “native born.” First of all the influence
of the immigrant culture was still very fresh. I was the first born American
in my family. And so it was a simultaneous process. I don’t think I found it
difficult at all except later in my teens I began to see that there was a
difference. Because I grew up in a predominantly Irish Catholic neighborhood,
and while most of them were second or third generation American it was alive
ethnically. Particularly so since I lived ten minutes away from the Catholic
Church and the convent. So, I would say the values of the European culture
fit in with the American culture as I experienced it. But the difference I
felt, ethnically, is probably of a more social aspect. I knew I was different
from my friends. My mother and father spoke with an accent and so on.
SM: And you said you noticed, later on, that there were some major
differences between your parents and people who were second or third
generation Americans. Other than an accent what were some of the differences
you noticed?
MS: I wouldn’t say it like that. The differences that I began to experience when
I told you I felt different? In retrospect, the difference was more to the
fact that my parents came from a different ethnic, cultural background than
the girls I grew up with. But they were not different in the total scheme of
things. They both believed in the American way of hard work. I would say the
experience would not have been so personal had I not perceived myself different because of the immigrant status of my
parents. But by the time I was born they were naturalized citizens, but in
the customs, manners and identification with Norway remained.
SM: Describe the relationship with each of your parents. Your mother. Your
father. Was your relationship with each of them different?
MS: Yes. They were both different, but I don’t think any different from most
American homes. My mother was a caretaker. My father had to work. My mother
stayed home, raised the family and kept the house, cooked, baked, it was
around the clock work in those days. Especially time consuming was washing
clothing with out a washing machine. But my father
was a business man, except during the war. And then his work became very
sporadic. There was tension in the house that was always there – to find work
and a job. And most of all, the house, the fear of losing the house. Despite
these worries, the relationship with my father was more carefree, he was
quiet but available when he came home. The dinner was there and…he was a nice
man. He was easy going. He would tell jokes, had a good sense of humor. But
he had that side of him that was very appealing to many people. My mother was
stricter, she was more a disciplinarian. I would say the relationship with my
father was close but not in terms of time we spent together.
SM: In what ways were your parents role models for
you to follow? How did they expect you, as a young woman, to behave in
American society, did their views ever clash with your own and how has your
parent’s influence carried over into the rest of your life?
MS: My parents were definitely role models. There’s no question about it. The
values they had and the way that they lived is pretty much the way I have
lived my life. Those values and the emotional climate that you grow up with
during those formative years don’t leave you as you get older. I was one of
three sisters, it was important to be honest, respectable. You had to go to
work, to look good and present yourself as put together and dignified and
above all—to live honorably. That was the big word; you had to live with
integrity. How you look and how you put yourself out in the world was going
to reflect these values. For example, wearing the right clothes to church.
You wouldn’t go to church wearing jeans and sneakers. Doing the right thing
is very important. There weren’t many clashes so much with my parents except
during the last of my teenage years when I wanted more freedom, than they
were often willing to give me. But I had fewer opportunities then that I
think young women and young men have today. So you might rebel against it,
there was no place to go. It was very strong with my parents. You would never
live on your own before you were married then. It was just bad taste! Except
for those role modifications, the basic values of my parents are intact, and
they are pretty much intact today.
SM: Describe your relationship with your sisters. Were any special roles
expected from each of you according to your sequence of birth? (I.E. oldest
had to marry wealthy, youngest had to stay at home to help family, etc.)
MS: That’s an interesting question. First of all, there was a big age
difference between my sisters and I. When I was born
my oldest sister was ten, and my other sister, Klara,
was a little over seven. It was like being an only child in the family. That
was different for me too. I don’t know if there were special roles, other
than, when I look back, I wasn’t assigned “a role,” because some kids are.
You know, this is the comic in our family, whatever. Except that my mother
would label me “the smart one.” This was a burden, because I didn’t feel that
smart. My sisters being close in age were also friends,
that made me the baby, often I had three mothers! The youngest having
to stay at home to help family? I don’t know. I never felt anything like an
obligation except when my father had another heart attack, I was married at
the time but had no children, so I came back to help support my mother. I
mean emotionally support my mother. Because she cared for my father at home.
SM: Did you volunteer for that, or did she ask you to come?
MS: I didn’t volunteer, I believe it was suggested by my sisters and I
readily agreed to it. It wasn’t an expectation on my mother or father’s part.
SM: How did growing up during the Great Depression affect your life and your
family’s lives?
MS: Greatly. It was the biggest overriding event that affected our lives
because it was so pervasive. It was all pervasive. There was no way of
getting away from it. That would affect my father being in business with himself, the reality of always looking for a job, that
feeling of dread. That overwhelming feeling of heaviness. It was also a great
teacher in that you need to know how to conserve your resources. Everything
had to get counted and appreciated. That’s where I get this so-called
“Depression mentality.” Yet, I had a sister who had an opposite point of view
that crossed over into her adulthood, “look, if I don’t spend it now it’ll go
anyway.” It can work both ways, but the Depression affected me a great deal
although I was never hungry, we never lost the house. But it was that dark cloud
of doom – and it that was always there. It was a major effect on the
emotionally growing up. And yet I can’t be specific about all the ways it
determined changes in my life. We had food every day, the house was warm in
the winter, but it was always on our minds that we had to save coal and be
careful with food because circumstances could change. There was a sense of
urgency that you grow up with, or that I did. The Great Depression had a
great impact on me!
SM: How much education did you have before you were married? How far in your
job did you get before you were married and had children? Looking back, do
you have any regrets or disappointments concerning the decisions you made in
those areas? What would you have done differently?
MS: I had a high school diploma. I did want to go to college, but it was
explained to me that if I were a boy my parents would do whatever they had
to, to get me into a college. I was a girl, and so on, and so forth…but to be
fair, I didn’t have the “fire in the belly” to go to college. It wasn’t that
overwhelming desire or disappointment to go or not to college. I
had high school and I did work until I got married. And I worked after I got
married I was a secretary to supplement support for Edgar because he was
going to college. He had been in the war for four or three years, this of
course was World War II. And he had come back and to pick up the two years of
college that he needed to complete his masters. So I worked a little bit to
help us along.
SM: What kind of job did you have after you were married?
MS: I had a secretarial work. Office work answering phones, taking notes,
sending out mail. I worked for commercial photographers. It was fun traveling
by bus or subway to Manhattan. Do I have any regrets or disappointments in
those areas? Now? Yes! Then, no.
SM: Growing up what was your opinion of women’s education, how much education
did you believe was “sufficient” in order for a woman to live successfully in
America? Has your opinion changed during your life time?
MS: Growing up, going to college wasn’t so critical, for me. It was
desirable, I would have liked to. My sisters never had the desire to. But
what was sufficient for a woman, at the time I had sufficient education. I
think today, women need as sufficient education as men do. No less is
acceptable. I think women need the same thing men do not only in education
but in terms of opportunity and every part of life. That’s how I have changed
in my thinking. Because I did it traditionally, I stayed home I had four children,
supported my husband. But that’s not sufficient for a woman anymore, and it’s
not sufficient for a man either. So pretty much what is sufficient for men in
their lives is sufficient for women. More! Take more! Combining careers,
relationships, sharing at home with children is important for women and men.
SM: What cultural traditions (if any) from Norway did your parents impress
upon you and your sisters? Did any of those traditions clash with the
American values children and young people at the time were expected to have?
(I.E. dating, religion, medical care, education for girls, ethics, sexuality,
etc.)
MS: The cultural traditions were mostly around food. Definitely food. Those
were areas of the culture that were strong and remained (in our family). I
would say the cultural traditions were to be true to them. There were issues
of ethnic loyalty and where you came from, who you came from. There was a
strong sense of responsibility to the family. You heard the story of my
mother going back to Norway to visit her dying mother. It was that strong.
She left her husband here. (In New York) You didn’t go fly then. So, it was a
major commitment lasting over three years! It was a very strong sense of
responsibility. I don’t if families that they would expect that any more but
that’s part of their strength too. You know, my sisters were born in Norway.
I’m the American. So not only was I younger then they, I was the American.
And that contributed to my feeling of “difference” that I mentioned earlier,
growing up.
SM: What traditions did Norwegian Lutherans have back then, about dating,
religion and medical care?
MS: They weren’t that different. They (Americans at the time) expected
patterns that weren’t that different from the Norwegians that brought me up.
Now, I was brought up in a Norwegian household but immersed into the American
culture, there were no other Norwegians around. So that again, is different.
The values were not that different. One went to church,
one got up and went to work or to school. You kept the house clean, you
disciplined the children. There was a certain order. I don’t think it clashed
in any way you’d think of with the predominating culture they found
themselves in. And they fit in very easily, except for the accents and
perhaps some formality. They were a little more formal, rather than casual in
interaction with people. We had a warm and friendly relationship with our
neighbors. (That wasn’t typical in New York.)
SM: Was it any coincidence that you married a man who was of similar ethnic
background as you? How about your sisters? Your parents? How important was
dating and marrying a Scandinavian viewed in your family?
MS: I don’t know if it was a coincidence. Probably it was. I met Edgar at the
92nd street Y in New York City. And of all places to meet a Scandinavian that
was not the place to try to meet one. There is the coincidence. But having
met him, I’m sure there was some kind of influence. He was of Norwegian and
Swedish background. He was a first generation American. My oldest sister
married some one who was not a Scandinavian, he was
Scotch-English. And I think that did cause a fuss, not in ancestry per se,
but other men that my sister had dated were Scan. When they thought it was
serious, I think they had something to say about it. But in the end my mother nor father ever exerted a kind of control
over it. Marrying a Scandinavian, which is what my second sister also did,
was a sort of comfort to my parents. Because it was comfortable for them,
there were similarities and they fit into the marriage easily, especially
with Klara’s husband, who spoke Norwegian.
There was a certain level of cordiality and comfort, friendship almost
instantly because of that. It probably had an influence on choosing (a
spouse). I’m not so sure, I knew it was a good thing. Probably had influence
I was not totally aware of.
SM: Did you date any other men besides Edgar?
MS: Oh yes. Never marry the only man you ever dated! That’s a rule! Even with
my parents. But I don’t remember all of the specifics. Yes there were several
people…Jim C., what’s his name…he’s dead…both these men are dead…Dresel… He was considered desirable because he went to
Dartmouth. And he was a Lutheran. Those things definitely did matter to my
parents. If you’re Lutheran you must be good. If you’re Norwegian you must be
decent. You know, those things were in play. This was a good thing, but the
two previous relationships and a few more casual relationships before I felt
were important, very important, to experience before I married.
SM: Before your marriage, did you view your work experience outside of your
home as a temporary venture that you would stop after you married and then
have your husband be the family bread winner, or did you consider your work
as a career that would stay with you for an unknown amount of time in order
for you to support yourself and your family after marriage?
MS: Never thought of anything after I got married, in terms of a career or
working outside of the home. The traditional values at that time were simple,
in the immigrant household that I grew up in when you married,
it was your job to stand behind your husband. You had children, stayed home
and took care of them. There wasn’t an option. I realize that even then
people had to take that option of working outside of their home because they
were forced to. But it you weren’t forced to, economically, that was the
expectation. The expectation that was quite high. I went to school (college)
much later, because I always wanted to go. When I married that was it that
was the end of my life in terms of working. Now I worked after I got married
to partially support my husband, who was going to college and getting a
master’s degree. I do think that who I married did affect my goal to pursue
what I wanted to do earlier and that was going to college. I think Edgar, and
the effort he put in it, the books and the house over the years and the
people who came were very influential on me. The man I married to support,
financially, emotionally and so forth, had an enormous influence on me in how
you were to succeed in school. But I thought it was yet very important to
stay at home, and I experienced anxiety and conflict over my
role.
SM: Discuss what you felt your husband expected of you as a wife and mother.
What did you feel your role was? Did your two perceptions of the role of wife
and mother ever clash? If so how? How were your perceptions changed after his
stroke?
MS: My husband had the same influences on him as I did, culturally. He was to
go out and slay the dragons and his wife was to cook the meat. We pretty much
stuck to that role. I think that’s exactly what he expected of me. That was
my role and I did accept it and I did get restless. I did not have a car.
Number one. The women today, although many have the same traditional roles
also have a bit more freedom to get out of the house and do things. I didn’t
have a car. I didn’t have a car till, right before we moved here (Long
Island) over forty years ago. I had to wait till he got home or on the
weekends. So I really began to feel limited. When I got a car and moved here,
things were more accessible to drive around to, it
did relieve that pent up feeling. But I began to feel restless, I got back to
school, and then I had another child. And then I had to stop school. When
then I went back to school. And when I was in graduate school Edgar had his
stroke. But I never quit, I only took off two weeks from school. I was
determined at this point in my life. I was so determined. Now, I don’t know
how I did it. Now my perceptions have changed after Edgar had his stroke,
that was twenty one years ago. It was a turning point in my life because I
realized that I was going to get what I wanted all these years and that was
to get this degree. And that was slipping right through my fingers because I
was slipping right back into my traditional role. It took me time to decide I
couldn’t let this happen and I went on with graduate school. I had a two year
master degree. And I also took care of him. Yes, my perceptions changed. I
have to be a person too as well as to take care of those who I’m responsible
for—people who depend on me.
SM: Discuss what you felt you expected of your husband as a father and a
husband. What did he feel his role was? Did your two perceptions of the role
of husband and father ever clash? If so how? How were your perceptions
changed after his stroke?
MS: What I felt he should be as a husband and a father was pretty much
fulfilled by him, in fact to the ‘T,’ in terms of him being the bread winner
and taking care of the family. He was extraordinarily responsible. Looking
back that that was also a problem. Because just as being a mother and a
caretaker isn’t sufficient for a woman. But she was first a person. And if
you can suppress that for a while, it’s called discipline. But when you
suppress your life, that’s another issue to be examined. I would say that
what I expected of him began to be too much. Because I
was in a restricted mind set of activity, no car, no mobility, I expected him
to be available much more than he could be. I grew to want and need something
that he as a very responsible father didn’t know what to do with. I began to
do a lot of reading and took a few courses, so I was expanding my thinking.
Edgar never clashed with me over that issue. There was never any kind of
argument over it. He certainly did encourage me to go to school. There were
some exceptions after his stroke, there were some complications. Education
isn’t everything. It isn’t very important in terms of job mobility. But I
think that women don’t get today, I think, that equality is more about
attitude and behavior. I don’t think women have caught up with that yet. The
glass ceiling has lifted a little, for now. But women are still in this awful
position of it’s either that or nothing. I think men being in that position
would cause…a great deal too. As a woman, I didn’t realize that this wasn’t
just a college degree or having a career. I went on to be a clinical social
worker. It isn’t just that. It’s that your whole behavior and your attitude has to change before you go to school and challenge a man
not only in the work place but in school. The attitude that women take a
mind-set that they take with them through generations; I don’t think it will
change anytime soon. I’m still working on it. Attitude, behavior and critical
thinking need to be a life-time pursuit. Too often women leave college behind
rather than take it with them.
Session 2: 3/3/04
SM: Discuss your wartime experience during World War II, how were you, a
young woman living in New York, affected by this historical event? How was
your family affected (if at all) by the occupation of Norway by Nazi Germany?
MS: Well the outbreak of the war was in 1939. What I wanted to share with
you, I was talking to may neighbors the other day,
the ones I was helping to pack. She said, you have
to tell her about your lifelong love of film. And that fits right in (to the
time period). Because in 1939, I was twelve years old and that was the year I
saw The Wizard of Oz and Gone With the Wind. It was the beginning of a
lifelong love affair with the cinema. It was very important to me, and still
is. Then in 1940, it was also the year that both my sisters got married. The
younger one in June, my oldest sister in November and then on December 7th,
the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. So it was all in that year. The immediate
concern of the family was that the two son-in-laws would have to go to war.
And both of them did, one of them had worked (before the war) for Pan-American
and now he worked for the government. He was essentially a navy pilot; flew
from the States to England with cargo and sometimes troops. And when he came
back he became the youngest Pan-American captain they ever had, at the age of
24. Then Matt, Joanna’s husband was in the army air
force, just as Edgar was, Edgar was in the air force for three years. But I
didn’t know your Grandfather at that particular time, but he never served in
combat. What I experienced was the rationing that went on. Also I remembered
the newspapers, the attention to those who had died and never came back.
There was a little tension and sadness but we never experienced first hand the horror of war…. My father worked in
the ship yards, so it was steady income. And the household experience was
different with that kind of atmosphere as well…the occupation of Norway, that
was early in the war. They (the Germans) did go into the southern part of
Norway where my parents grew up in, Mandal. The
house was occupied, the house my mother grew up in, by German officers and
other men. There is a piece of furniture in the house you’ve probably heard a
great deal, that came back to this country after the occupation. It’s the
mirror at the foot the stairs, and there’s a table that goes under it…that
had glass marks on it. (Rings from moisture underneath drinking glasses) My
mother looked at that when it came to this country and she shook her head and
said, “Barbarians.” I had it refinished, I should have left it. Those are
glass marks left by the ‘barbarians.’ So, we knew first hand from
Norway, that occupation was different than what we were experiencing at home.
But personally, I don’t think there were any atrocities or experiences like that, that I know of. So that was pretty much the war, I was
very sensitive to film. It was all just plain old propaganda. Oh my goodness,
it was awful. We’re now embarrassed about how dumb we were. Back then we had
news reels, that were how we got information about the war at the movies and
of course radio. We saw two pictures for the price of one and a cartoon. So
it was a news real, a cartoon and two feature
pictures. I don’t know it was a probably like ten cents at the time. We
didn’t suffer greatly during the war, at least I didn’t. We were very, very
aware that people were suffering and were dying. I don’t think rationing is a
form of real ‘suffering’ during war time.
SM: Discuss how the civil rights and feminist movement during the 1950’s and
1960’s and how it affected your political and social
views (if at all).
MS: Yes. I think it had an effect on my political views. I did come from a
family that was very politically aware. Politics was discussed a great deal.
Whatever emerged didn’t come out of a vacuum. I was from a politically aware
family as well as from a family that read. There were other distinctions too,
growing up. I can remember that FDR was a big compensation for workers. Both
pro and con for my family. My father thought that he had “saved this country”
because he built up the infrastructure creating the WPA. And at the same time
putting people back to work. I think he felt that Roosevelt saved the country
from really being destroyed. Of course the war helped the economy. The need
for order and security as well as integrity, compassion and character are
values from my parents that show itself in everything in my life, not just
politics. Although values are the foundation of one’s
political stands. The issues of civil rights fell right into place. It was
not an unusual concept or even a revolutionary concept to me. I would think
that feminism was a logical extension of civil rights. And it would be the
current logical extension today for gay rights. The underlining piece of the
civil rights’ issue probably came from my father. My mother was very religious
an observant Christian. My father was very casual and nonchalant. But he was
the kind of person who would say, “But Christ was the first socialist!” Of
course then my mother would get angry, it became a sort of reoccurring comic
act in the family. The religiousness of my mother probably led to a lot of
our family’s political priorities, also helping the poor, etc…and the
attitude that “the meek shall inherit the earth.” It didn’t affect me any
more than that we took a quietly active stand to go along. We had always
acted like that (in my family) up until the Vietnam War. But we did take a
quiet stand…my family background definitely effected my political and social
views and the movements became an extension on those values my family taught
me to value…there was no break. But as you know as people get older they no
longer support that, because they want to do what they want to do, but there
was never that break for me.
SM: Discuss your relationship with your four daughters. What expectations /
wishes did you have for them in life? (Specifically in terms of education,
marriage, jobs, child birth, etc.) Have your relationships and expectations
with them changed at all during your lives? Did your values and expectations
of them ever clash with their own? If so how and when?
MS: Well I do have four daughters. Their early relationship was
difficult. I could relate to them all very well, since I am a girl too…! I’m
a very good mother with younger children. Once they got a little older I
started to adopt a hard nosed attitude about
things. It shifts. I was never disappointed that I didn’t have a son. Never.
My husband never said anything. He was always happy with those babies… my
mother used to say, “It is better for my daughters than it was for me, it was
better for me than it was for my mother and grandmother, and now it’s much
better for your daughters.” So I thought that things would be better (for my
daughters). And what did better mean? Well, certainly all of them would go to
college. That is the minimum today and then. It doesn’t mean exactly that you
would be “educated” but in the world we live in I think that’s minimum. And I
wanted them to be critical thinkers. That’s what I think is missing in a lot
of women today. They don’t have the ability to think critically beyond their
spectrum of politics and society. And I guess, in a traditional sense, I
hoped that they would be married one day, and have children, and they would
be faced with the old dilemma. I didn’t really go beyond that. My relationships
and expectations have changed. I don’t expect any woman to be more than they
want to be at their stage in life. This stage in life (later years of life)
the tasks of raising children are over. The childbearing years are over…and
at this stage in life you have the opportunity to fly a little bit. You may
not be the president of a corporation…but you have opportunities that weren’t
there while you were raising young kids…. Being a parent, being a good parent
demands a sacrifice. No way around that. I don’t mean your entire life is the
sacrifice, that would be insane. There are decisions
that you have to make and you do have to put yourself aside sometimes…after
that’s done it’s time to shift gears again. I think I felt it very strongly….
I was only 55 when Edgar had a stroke. So my relationship with my daughters
now is I have no clout. None! Oh, some are more polite than others at least
they listen to me! They don’t have the obligation to do anything I say and I
realize that. So now you have a relationship built on friendship. I no longer
have the authority that mother’s have. So I guess that’s where we are. I
would say the basic values that we have in the family have continued on in
the younger generations.
SM: Your husband had a stroke in February of 1983 which left him permanently
handicapped, how did this affect you (your marriage, emotionally,
financially, your role in the family, your views on women’s education and
work outside of the home, etc.)
MS: As I said I think that was the time when all of that (working outside the
home, education) came to fruition. I was only 55…and we were both in good
health. Edgar was in magnificent health. He ran all of his life he always
took care of himself…so it was a significant shock. An enormous shock…but I
was in graduate school at that time, because I found I couldn’t do anything
else that I wanted to do without a master’s. I only missed one week. One week
perhaps two, and I was back again at school. They gave me some extra time to
get my papers ready and also to deal with the emotional issues, you can’t
just put that aside. But I handed in the small things that had to be done the
requirements. Big papers were harder to do because I had to run into the city
three times a week…but I knew that I had to get through it; to express my self fulfillment. That’s when it all went to fruition.
I had a lot of criticism, I should say that too, but I was so determined. I
think a lot of people thought, that I was just going to get this degree and
hang it on the wall and forget about it. But then I went to work. That did
take a few years of getting more education and working professionally,
working my way into handling running the home, I had a sixteen year old
daughter, and a husband who was severely handicapped. So there was also a role
reversal…it took a long time. A long, long time. It’s very easy to forget, now the reality is you need to take care of
yourself and he needs to be taken care of. The old psychological and
emotional stuff marches on but you take up the slack because you have to
work. That took many, many years. It was hard but I did it.
SM: How did your decision to go back to college and attain a professional
career effect your relationship with your husband and children?
MS: I know how it affected my youngest child, because she was living at
home. The other children were gone. My husband was probably, he had mixed
reactions. Remember, he…I would tell by the body language which was, after
the stroke, you know, everything…he would cry easily, if he was sad he would
hang his head, if he was angry he would bang on the
table, he never did that before the stroke. It was a great difference
emotionally he wasn’t able to keep control over some reactions…so if I was
going on to class sometimes he would shake his head, but that didn’t deter
me! The head shaking didn’t deter me. I do think I had to work at it, so it
didn’t deter me. I think Kirsten did have a difficult time. She had a mother
who was frantic to hang on to graduate school and a father who no longer was
there…in a sense I wasn’t available…sixteen was a difficult time for her, it is for a lot of people…It effected
her greatly. We still talk about it now, I think it
should be talked about. I don’t know if she’s angry about it. She should have
told me. It’s hard to be angry with him (Edgar) when it’s something that’s so
beyond his control…he didn’t have a choice, but I had a choice, you see. So
maybe she was very angry with me? I don’t know, but I’m glad we’re talking
about it.
SM: Looking back over your life, how much control do you feel you had over
the decisions that have shaped your life? In other words, do you feel you had
more freedom to choose your life’s path or did the men in your life (father,
husband and bosses) control your mobility?
MS: I don’t think I had that much control, over my life. When you look
back, there was a pattern, you fit your life cycle
of past, present and future. My future is closing, it’s not like I dwell on
that. And then those that are after me, it becomes that same thing only
different. There is a certain continuity about it.
The continuity comes from the family that you knew before, the country that
you knew before, the world as you knew it before, because we’re all part of
that background cycle. We don’t live in a little bubble, isolated from
everyone. I think I have been always aware because of the immigrant status of
my parents that there were many factors on my life. And it wasn’t just being
born in this particular place, to these particular parents, going to this
particular school, it all impacted me but there’s a bigger collective impact,
and that is part of the continuity. A parent provides continuity. I felt the
value of the continuity…to live in the present. I have respect for that
continuity and that cycle. I came from so many generations who talked about
it…and there was a respect and reverence for it, especially in my mother’s
family. My father’s brothers all died very
young. My mother had a brother here, the family and its importance…that’s
where the control came from, not specifically from a man or a father—although
I never forget that men rule the world. We’re not going to get it yet,
because we’re not equal. You can’t speak out equally; (women) don’t really
feel they have the right. Even today it’s like that…women when they (marry)
go back to that traditional role. Most often they go back to that mind set:
“husband, Tarzan. And she, Jane.” And now they repeat,
the world as it had been for centuries. They’ve somehow left their college
brains behind, and thinking in a critical way is gone. That’s what bothers
me, when I look over what’s going on today. When I look back over life, who controlled it? The world, the community, the country,
the state, the family. It’s not one thing. It’s everything…you’re always
important but secondary as a mother and a wife…I say that the world and the
conventional roles at the time for men and women have dictated my life I was
also broadened because I had a nice husband and a good father, nevertheless,
they had roles they had to fit into.
SM: If you had to pick one event in your life that was considered a “turning
point” or a “moment of truth” what was it? How did this even impact the rest
of your life?
MS: Well, I always say that getting married is a moment of truth. But, the
moment of truth was definitely, Edgar’s stroke. When you marry, that’s when
the dilemma begins, who are you? You fall right into the wife and mother
role. Which is an important role, I don’t what to
diminish it. But it is all consuming. And men are not apt for it. I don’t
know who said it…one of the quotes “that love is all consuming of women, for
men it’s an episode.” That was my life. I don’t want to change the fact that
love is very important in how we live our life. I don’t want to change that.
I do want it to be as important for men. And I don’t want it to be so all
consuming for women. I took me a long time for me to get there. I have
something else I wanted to tell you, I talked to my sister last Tuesday, they
have a new baby girl in the family, a girl…I was telling her about this
(interview) and she said, “Oh, yes well you’re the one to do it, you’re the
smart one.” And I said, “Joanna!” She said, “Listen, mom called me the
beautiful one, and Klara was the comic…see I told
you my mom had no titles for us? Well for my older sister she did! …but it’s
not really just that, every mother believes that her first baby is the most
beautiful…. Tell me I’m right! No conflict here!
END OF INTERVIEW
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